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Premananda, a sixty year old English spiritual teacher travels constantly through Europe. He sees himself as a messenger for the ancient wisdom gathered from his Indian Masters, Osho, Papaji and Ramana Maharshi and his years living in Japan immersing himself in the eastern culture, particularly Zen. He is currently based at the Open Sky House in Germany. This interview was conducted by six of Premananda's close students in November 2005. What does Being Quiet mean? By following a technique like Zazen or Vipassana you come to Stillness or Peace. What I'm suggesting is that without any kind of technique you can simply be quiet. As you close your eyes and be quiet you become aware of a lot of thoughts and feelings. After some time you start to notice gaps between the thoughts, just brief moments of Stillness. Focusing on these gaps the thoughts and feelings are far away and you become aware of a vast expanded space inside, without boundaries. Be quiet has the power, by absolutely doing nothing, to bring you to your True Nature. When you stay longer in this be quiet you find suddenly a tremendous Oneness and Love which is just there, overwhelmingly there. Be quiet is not a practice. It is just a signpost guiding you to your True Nature. Your True Nature is always there present. We lose touch with it because we get preoccupied with the conditioned mind and all the exciting movies that the conditioned mind is offering. Can you please give advice on how to bring Stillness into my life? If you are a complete beginner then probably the first step is a spiritual practice that will quieten your mind; something like meditation, breath work or mantra singing. Once you have achieved this quiet mind then just naturally there comes a greater longing inside to know Stillness. Self-Enquiry can help you come into this Stillness. As you go through your daily life, whatever you're thinking or doing, simply ask, To whom do these thoughts arise or Who is doing this? The answer, of course, is Me. Then ask, Who is this me, who am I? This second question (no intellectual answer helps) takes you back inside to the Source and the Source is Stillness. Self-Enquiry provides a constant reminder that you can in fact disengage from your thoughts and dramas and you can come back to the Source of that, which is the Stillness. Is there a particular Premananda teaching? I don't see there being any kind of special Premananda teaching. The things that are said in the Satsang meetings are more by way of being a messenger. For twenty years I've had a strong connection with Ramana Maharshi. I spent fifteen years with Osho and five years with Papaji. These three people have been guides or messengers of the ancient Indian wisdom and now I see myself as a messenger of that wisdom as I travel through Europe. Naturally I have my own unique way to explain and create the channel for this message. Something that's uniquely Premananda is that I've developed a number of different intensive weekends which provide an opportunity to look at different aspects of the journey. Can you explain how people sabotage themselves? I've had many meetings and met probably thousands of people in Europe. Often people come very enthusiastic and open to one or two evenings. Maybe they get some information or knowledge and feel that's enough for them. Maybe they have a judgment about the teacher or aren't so interested in the subject anyway. Others become more involved in the work and more deeply affected by the contact with the teacher. Very often when these people come close to some deep understanding, to Awakening, they suddenly disappear. As you come very close to Awakening, what you are faced with is that everything you believe to be yourself is simply not true. As you begin to see and understand this illusion, you also start to see that this is a kind of death. There is a fear that if you would really let go deeply, then a lot would change; you would lose everything you think of as yourself or everything on the outside. There is the idea that you might not be able to maintain your apartment, your job, your family. This deep fear is a natural part of the conditioned mind and so to have this fear is also a sign that the person has got close to a true understanding. In certain cities where many teachers are coming, people will go from one meeting to the next without ever making a commitment or surrendering to one teacher. I would suggest that people absolutely surrender to one teacher. If you're interested, go and sit in other meetings and enjoy the support that they give you, but keep your main spiritual work to the one who naturally came into your life as your Master. Deal with what it means to surrender to that one Master and go really deep with that Master. The thing which prevents deep understanding is an attachment to a story which perhaps only someone on the outside can actually reflect. So it's very important to have a deep enough connection with a Master that he is going to reflect to you whatever it might be that is covering a clear understanding. What does Awakening mean? I'm using the word Awakening for a moment of Ah hah! and in this moment of Ah hah! you see without any doubt that you were never the story, My Life. You see that this story, My Life was, in fact, a total illusion created inside the conditioned mind and has no reality. Usually this happens very suddenly and unexpectedly. There is this glimpse, Ah hah! and in that moment the whole illusion simply collapses and you find yourself just sitting there in Stillness, in Nothingness, in No-Mind, in the Self. I would call that kind of moment to be an Awakening. It's Awakening out of the illusion. What happens after Awakening? It's a very individual thing. You could say that often after this moment of Ah hah! there is a period of hours, days, maybe months where the person is in a kind of hot energetic happening. Some people simply can't function very well during that time. They feel to be quiet and alone. They feel a bit to withdraw from the world. Usually in this hot period there would be a lot of ecstasy inside. There can be a big difference between what's going on inside and what it looks like on the outside. Then things become more cool and more ordinary. You could even say very ordinary. There's a big difference, because now although everything is kind of ordinarily - trees still look like trees, cars still look like cars - but suddenly everything seems a bit far away. Nothing is so immediate anymore. You are just the observer of a film and you're not really so attached anymore to this film; you don't feel connected to these stories. After this initial hot period where there may be absolutely no-mind for some period, it gets to be cool. Then some of the familiar old structures will come back, but now with a distance so that you're not so attached to those structures. You start to be aware of those structures not as my structurse but just as structures. It seems that just by the Awareness of these structures, which in Hindi are called vasanas, the bite goes and they disappear. There is some movement between Awakening and Freedom. I would define Awakening as the moment of understanding that I am not this story, My Life, that it was always an illusion, and Freedom as a moment when these structures have really calmed down and mostly disappeared. Freedom is then existing in presence, moment by moment. You are free of these old conditioned structures. You are simply living in the vastness of Stillness and life unfolds. It doesn't mean that every moment is blissful. It means that you simply are there, present and dealing with life as you confront it, as you meet it. Can I still function in the world after Awakening? It may be during the hot period and just in the immediate aftermath of an Awakening, that you can't function. But very quickly you can function very well, even better because you are not carrying this load of old stories and you meet each moment fresh, spontaneous and available. So there is absolutely no problem to function in the world, but there may be less desire to function in the world. It's very likely that after Awakening there are changes, even major changes in your lifestyle because there is less interest in relationships or in working in a situation which you never really liked. So you let it go and something else happens. For example, a number of people have chosen to come and live here in our community after they had their Awakening. Can you Awaken and still have a girlfriend? Can you Awaken with a girlfriend? Well, there are two questions here. Before Awakening the whole effort is to see the story and to become clear of it. When you have a girlfriend, you have your story and then you have the girlfriend's story and then you have the relationship story. So suddenly there are three stories to become clear of. So you could say being in relationship makes it more complicated. It's rather easy to have a girlfriend or boyfriend after Awakening because you're not really attached to the girlfriend or boyfriend's story anymore, but in fact you might not be so interested. You probably won't be interested in having a relationship in the conventional sense, where there is a big story and both partners are trying to maintain this story. That will probably just drop away, but relating becomes easier. So you might find yourself relating with many people and even in a deeply intimate way, but not in the old, more traditional kind of relationship drama. Most Awakened people probably live alone. That may be changing in the last years as more Western people have come into this because Western people have more pull to be in relationship. Traditionally in the East, people who went on the spiritual path tended to be celibate and so would be less involved in relationship. Having said all that, there is an exception. When both partners are interested in Truth, when Awakening is the first priority in the relationship, and when both partners are supporting and mirroring each other, then it can also be a supportive thing to have a girlfriend. So I can use a girlfriend to become Awakened? If you are very clear, yes, you could use your girlfriend to become Awakened. But there is always the danger that you'll be so attached to the girlfriend that she will take you away from the interest in Awakening. One of the common ways people sabotage is that just before the Awakening, when they seem to be very close to understanding they suddenly decide that the new girlfriend or boyfriend is much more important than this Awakening and they disappear off into this new relationship. Traditionally in the spiritual life in the East, the advice is to be celibate. Being celibate means not only do you not have sex, but you also don't have a relationship. In the West almost nobody would be ready for celibicy and so my own advice would be to stay single and to relate from being single rather than to get caught up in a dramatic story with somebody. What is the most important thing for the Awakening then? In the end, the Awakening doesn't come from any teaching. In the end, the Awakening seems to be coming, you could say, by Grace. It just happens. The most important thing is that you make yourself the most available to Grace. Attending Satsang meetings, having a teacher, associating with friends who are also interested, these kinds of things give you the best chance of Grace happening. But this Grace also happens just spontaneously to very innocent people. Many people have ideas of perfection which they project onto the teacher. How to know who is the right teacher? Most spiritual seekers are looking for a Master who is a bit special, who is a bit different from them. Masters who appear in wonderful clothes, stepping out of shiny motorcars and standing on marble stages have a certain appeal because they seem to be extraordinary. But when you come to find your own Master, I think it just happens. When the longing inside you becomes so intense, then out of existence a Master suddenly appears. You know on some level inside that this is your Master. He may not be the Master you had been planning to have, he might not be perfect enough, he might not meet your ideas about how a Master should behave, but you feel inside you a deep connection. So even though the mind may be judging him and finding he doesn't meet your standard, inside there is a knowing that this is the person. I think that's the way it happens. Probably if it's a good Master he will never satisfy your ideas about how he should be because naturally he is living his life authentically according to how he feels to be and that's not going to be, of course, how anybody else would like him to be. Does this mean if I find my teacher absolutely perfect then he is not the right teacher for me? The thing that's interesting is to see what it is about the Master that keeps on grabbing you. What is his imperfection that you most get most annoyed about? I remember in the beginning with Papaji it was very difficult for me because I'd been used to Osho who would arrive in a stretch Rolls Royce, stand on a white marble stage and wearing a beautiful gown. Suddenly here was Papaji arriving in a van, with tattoos on his arm, wearing an old un-ironed t-shirt and sitting on a wooden platform. Initially I found him a much less perfect Master than my first Master. But of course, quite quickly I saw this was just my own idea and I was able to let go of it. My idea was a bit ridiculous. Once a teacher has been found, what's the best way to behave for maximum benefit? There's no doubt about that. If you really long for Truth and if you are lucky to find your teacher, then the very best advice is to spend as much time as possible with that teacher. Take him for lunch, wash his clothes, find any possible way to serve him and to stay with him and be with him. That may be not so practical for many people so then I would suggest that as much as possible you stay and visit that teacher at regular enough intervals that he's always there inside you, he's always with you. Then when you think of that Master, whatever the question, whatever the situation is, somehow, the answer comes. By remembering the Master you are actually remembering your own True Nature and so it acts as a constant reminder to keep on the path, the pathless path because there is no real path. In many ways, the Master is a reminder. And what about surrender? What does it mean to surrender to a Master? Initially, when this longing is very strong and you're drawn to one Master, surrender means to bow down to that Master, to accept the Master. Bowing down does not necessarily mean physically bowing down on the outside, but it means a letting go inside into this relationship with the Master, to accept this relationship with the Master. To accept this person as Your Master is the meaning of surrender. But there is a deeper meaning and this deeper meaning is that the Master is the Self. So when you surrender to the Master you are not surrendering to the personality of the Master, you are surrendering to the Self. The Self of the Master and your Self are the same Self. So on a deeper level surrender actually means surrendering to your True Nature. You stayed five years with your Master, Papaji. Did you take him for lunch and wash his clothes? In my case, I didn't take him for lunch and wash his clothes because other people were doing that. But after I had been there about two or three months I had a meeting with him. He said, You can make a guest house for my people. That's what he asked me to do and so I did it for more than four years. I ran a big guest house so that people who were coming to visit him had somewhere to stay. In my daily life it became my priority. Every night I would be there as the host for dinner. I saw it as my role to take care of the guests. I don't know what Papaji's intention was, but the result for me personally was to have a kind of constant laboratory. Every guest brought an opportunity for me to see Premananda's stuff! I also served Papaji in other ways. For some time I ran a bookshop. Once I loaned Papaji my cat. That was a kind of funny story. So different things happened, you know. But basically for me my role seemed to be to have a guest house. So basically that means that the service is more important than the actual physical contact? I think it depends on the person. I think for some people they need to have the regular, physical contact and for other people it's more to do with service. Your tour plan is very busy and you are traveling most of the year, but also since last year you have a Satsang community at a farm in Germany. How do these two things work together? I came to Europe three years ago and I've been traveling intensely since then. It started in Germany, but now I'm traveling to most other European countries as well. Exactly a year ago, this Satsang community started rather spontaneously and unexpectedly out of a summer retreat. So now a year later, we're about fifteen people living together on a horse farm and this is my base. At the moment I don't spend so much time there. I'm mostly travelling, but always rather connected to the community because there are always three or four people from the community traveling along with me. These people change throughout the year so everybody gets an opportunity to come on the Satsang tour. So there's a kind of deep connection between the community and the tour. Also we have a Satsang office in the community which is organising and preparing the different meetings and retreats. The community gives a tremendous support to the Satsang tour with this organising. Also we have a wonderful Satsang room here in a beautiful old barn. It can probably seat about two hundred people. At Easter and in the summer we have a Satsang retreat here and along the way of my tour we have Retreat weeks at the community. People who I meet as I travel, if they are interested enough, can come and visit the community. We have Satsang together and they can decide if they are interested to come and live in the community. So the tour and the community work very much together and provide a wonderful opportunity for people who are really hot about Awakening and maintaining Awakening. This is something quite new and I don't know how it will develop, this community, but it seems to provide a kind of refuge or retreat where people have more opportunity to be with themselves. They have more opportunity to see their stories because the people around them are not so interested in these stories. Of the fifteen people who live there four people are Awakened. The community flyer says that the only point of the community is Awakening. Can you comment on this? The point is to support Awakening and once Awakened, to support Freedom. This is a place for the few people who really want to Awaken or who have Awakened and see the value of living with a group of people who actually want to live this Awakening. It's one thing to Awaken and it's another thing to actually live the Awakening. You could say this community is a small oasis where people have a space and a support either to Awaken or to live the Awakening and both things are happening here. That's the main point of the community and all the other points are less important. So we have no rules. There is a feeling to be vegetarian, but there isn't a rule that says you have to be vegetarian and so some people eat meat. There's a suggestion that we have a daily meditation together as a community, but some people don't come. In that way we don't want to become a kind of institution. We'd like to keep the place a bit chaotic, a bit intensive and fun. As it's in Germany this is a little remarkable, I think. I should also say it's probably only because we are in Germany that it can work because to maintain this community, the food, the shopping, the daily cleaning and washing and supporting Satsang, is a lot. It's a very intensive life. We're not separate from life here in the community. The normal daily tasks are still happening. It's not some sort of esoteric community far away from life. It's absolutely in the life. But Awakened people are also just in the life. It's a nice idea that Awakened people are somehow other than human, but this is not true. It's just a wrong idea. Are there children in this community? Yes. At the moment we have four children and two babies. Previously, we also had a ninety year old grandmother. It's just a slice of life, happening here. The children have their own space, but they like to use the rest of the space too. Having these two babies has been a tremendous gift for everyone. Is it also possible for mothers to Awaken? Also, ich erinnere mich als ich früher bei Osho war, vor ungefähr dreißig Jahren, da gab es eine Frage, die war so ähnlich. Die Frage war: „Können Frauen erwachen?“ Vor dreißig Jahren gab es so etwas wie eine allgemein verbreitete Vorstellung, dass Erwachen nur etwas für Männer sei, weil alle Meister Männer zu sein schienen. Vielleicht war es Oshos Unterstützung, mit der Frauen sehen konnten, dass sie auch erwachen können. Es ist absolut klar, dass jeder erwachen kann. Das Erwachen ist an keine Bedingung geknüpft. Also kannst du mit oder ohne Sex erwachen. Du kannst erwachen, wenn du ein Kind hast oder wenn du kein Kind hast. Du kannst erwachen während du in der Welt arbeitest. Du kannst in einer Höhle sitzend erwachen. Es hängt von nichts im Außen ab. Und andererseits ist es auch wahr, dass manchmal Mütter auf egoistische Weise sehr mit ihrem Kind verstrickt sind und so ist die Anhaftung an die Geschichte für eine Mutter mit Kind vielleicht größer als für jemanden, der einfach Single ist. Es ist nicht so, dass eine Mutter mit Kind nicht erwachen kann. Hier in dieser kleinen Gruppe haben wir zwei Mütter, die erwacht sind. Kleine Kinder erinnern dich an die Präsenz. In diesem Sinne ist es eine Unterstützung, ein Kind zu haben, denn das Kind ist eine beständige Erinnerungshilfe, präsent zu sein. Leider verwickeln sich viele Mütter in das Drama, das zwischen Kind und Mutter entsteht. Jeder Mensch hat seine eigene Geschichte, mit der er zurechtkommen muss, und das ist oft schon schwierig genug. So gibt es bereits zwei Geschichten plus die Beziehung zwischen Mutter und Kind. Wie in der Beziehung zwischen Mann und Frau, sind es dann plötzlich drei Geschichten. In dem Sinne ist es vielleicht schwieriger, klar zu werden. Wie wichtig ist Priorität für das Erwachen? Papaji used to say that the Truth was the final desire and then he would qualify that and say it's not really a desire, it's a longing. He used to say that all the other desires have to fall away before it's possible really to Awaken. Awakening is like the last longing. In being the last longing it's also the first priority. It seems to be very important that the focus and the longing inside are towards Truth. If that's not there then almost for sure something will deflect the interest, a new girlfriend, new boyfriend, whatever it is. And so I would say the longing for Truth is the most important. Du hast viele Jahre mit zwei indischen Meistern in Indien gelebt. Nun bietest du Satsang in Europa an. Was ist der Unterschied? When I was interested in searching for Truth thirty years ago it seemed to be necessary to go to the East. I started in Japan because I had some interest in Zen and while I was there the connection that brought me to an Indian ashram happened. So in my case I got to India through Japan. As far as I can see looking back thirty or forty years ago, most people who were interested in Truth would make a journey to the East. They would go to Tibet, to India, to Japan for Zen or they might go to Thailand for Buddhism. There was a pull to travel to the East and there weren't so many Western teachers. There were Gurdjieff and Krishnamurti, but they were quite rare. I would guess around the same time many Eastern teachers started also traveling to the West. When the Chinese occupied Tibet a lot of the Tibetan lamas and teachers left Tibet and have now traveled in the world and found their places. A lot of that Tibetan spiritual wisdom is now available in the West quite easily. Many Indian Masters also traveled in the West. There are a number of Western teachers who've been in the East and are now teaching in the West. So now if you are a young person in the West and you're interested in Truth you don't necessarily need to go to the East. So it's really a different situation from when I started thirty years ago. The teachings have come from the East and so there is an attraction to go to the source of the teachings and to touch those traditions. So there is a pull to go to Zen in Japan or to Buddhism in Thailand or to Hinduism or Vedanta in India. I think many people still feel that pull to travel there. But there are a lot of good Western teachers now traveling in the West who speak the western languages. The Western teachers are also more in line with the culture and traditions of the West and so that can be an advantage. Es hat etwas Schönes, in die Länder des Ostens zu reisen, denn dort ist der Fokus auf die Hingabe im täglichen Leben so ein großer Teil der Tradition, dass es eine wunderbare Unterstützung ist. Einfach nur wenn du in Indien aus dem Flugzeug steigst, spürst du sofort so etwas wie eine Energie der Hingabe und das öffnet etwas in den Menschen aus dem Westen, denn wir haben diese Tradition der Hingabe im Westen nicht. Also, ich würde sagen, es ist eine wunderbare Sache, eine Pilgerreise in einige östliche Länder zu machen. Viele der Lehrer aus dem Westen gehen mit ihren Schülern in östliche Länder. Auch hat sich die Weltlage in den letzten dreißig oder vierzig Jahren verändert, so dass sie jetzt mehr wie ein globales Dorf ist, auch die Trennung zwischen Ost und West verändert sich. Materiell gesehen ist der Osten technologisch beinahe genauso fortgeschritten wie der Westen, und der Westen wird immer spiritueller. Was wie ein natürlicher Prozess erscheint, geschieht tatsächlich Jahr für Jahr. Die Menschen aus dem Westen, die eine bestimmte Ebene des materiellen Reichtums erreicht haben, bekommen immer mehr Interesse an der spirituellen Tradition des Ostens, und die Menschen aus dem Osten haben oder sind dabei, den materiellen Wohlstand des Westens zu erreichen. Länder wie Indien und China, zumindest in der Mittelschicht, sind dabei, sehr modern, sehr materialistisch zu werden und verlieren ein bisschen den Kontakt zu ihrer spirituellen Tradition. Im Westen empfinden die Menschen eine Leere. Sie haben alle materiellen Besitztümer, die sie sich vorstellen konnten und was nun? Ihr Leben erscheint ein wenig leer und das bringt sie dazu, nach innen zu schauen und ihre wahre Natur zu finden. Du hast darüber gesprochen, sich dem Lehrer hinzugeben. Bedeutet das, immer das zu tun, was der Lehrer von dir verlangt? Grundsätzlich verlangt der Lehrer gar nichts von dir. Aber oftmals gibt er dir irgendwelche Aufgaben zu erledigen. Ja, er mag dir eine Aufgabe geben, weil es im Fluss des Lebens notwendig erscheint oder vielleicht denkt er auch, dass diese Aufgabe für dich nützlich sein wird. Wenn das der Fall ist, dann wäre es hilfreich, ja zu sagen, auch wenn an diesem Ja etwas Unbequemes ist. Die ganzen Bemühungen des Meisters gehen da hin, dass du erwachst. Nur daran ist er interessiert. Also, wenn er dich darum bittet, etwas zu tun, dann geschieht das im Sinne des Erwachens, auch wenn es nicht danach aussieht und sogar auch, wenn du einen Widerstand dagegen spürst. Die ganze Bemühung besteht darin, dass du erwachst und dieses Erwachen dann lebst. Wenn du einen starken Widerstand gegen das hast, worum dich der Lehrer bittet, schaue, um was es bei dem Widerstand geht, weil dieser Widerstand dich davon abhält, wahrhaftig zu sein. In der Wahrheit gibt es keinen Widerstand, denn du weisst, dass es unwichtig ist, was du im Aussen tust. Du bist die reine Bewusstheit dessen, was du tust und es ist nicht wirklich wichtig, was der Körper im Aussen macht, weil du die reine Bewusstheit dessen bist. Es scheint mir, als hättest du einen harten Job. Warum machst du das eigentlich? Denn ich denke, manche Menschen sind wirklich im Widerstand. Also, derjenige, der am meisten davon profitiert, ist der Meister. Wenn du es so betrachtest, ist es gar nicht so ein harter Job. Das andere, was mir auffiel, ist, dass in den Momenten, in denen die persönliche Entscheidung die gewesen wäre, aufzuhören, weil es einfach zu anstrengend war, meistens etwas wirklich Schönes passiert ist. Ich kann mich an viele Beispiele erinnern, wo es so aussah, als wäre es nun wirklich genug, und dann geschah plötzlich etwas tief Berührendes mit jemandem, und dann konnte ich sehen, ich kann nicht aufhören. Es ist ganz komisch, denn ich denke, es sind nun etwa acht Jahre, seitdem ich begonnen habe, Satsang zu geben, und in diesen acht Jahren gab es noch nicht einmal eine Woche, in der nicht irgendeine Art Satsang stattfand. Man könnte sagen, er hat sein Eigenleben. Da ist niemand, der etwas macht. Man hat nicht wirklich eine Wahl. Es hat auf seltsame Art angefangen. Ich lebte in Australien und hatte ein Reiki-Wochenende. Am Samstag Mittag ging ich spazieren und ich sah ein Straßenschild. Darauf stand: „Crystal Avenue“ und das erinnerte mich an etwas, dass ich Papaji geschrieben hatte. Dadurch entstand eine Verbindung zwischen mir und Papaji. Plötzlich war es, als käme im Inneren eine Faxnachricht an. Aus dieser Verbindung zu Papaji heraus kam eine ziemlich lange Botschaft, die besagte, dass ich etwas zu erledigen hatte. Das hat sich ziemlich komisch angefühlt und ich habe es nicht so wirklich ernst genommen. Später am Tag gab ich einige Reiki- Einweihungen, und wieder kam die Botschaft, dass das meine Einweihung war und nicht, dass ich die Schüler einweihte. |